Sunday, May 10, 2009

And the Battle Continues to Rage,7340,L-3712747,00.html

In response to the above article (which I hope linked properly):

"It should make us cognizant of the fact that we are but a creation of a Higher Power and that whatever we can achieve pales into insignificance when it is compared to the Creator of the universe."

This here is exactly where this article completely misses the point. People who do not choose to observe Shabbat generally don't believe we ARE "but a creation of a Higher Power" and there is no reason for them to be forced into a cognizance of something with which they disagree completely. Beliefs cannot and should not be forced on a public that has made up their mind on the issue already. That means that forcing people to do so falls into the category of encraochment upon freedom of religion, of belief, of thought, and of free expression.

Also, the grammar and punctuation in this article is atrocious.


Blogger yoni said...

actualy miri most people who do not observe shabbos do believe in g-d.

athiesm, even in jewish circles, is still quite rare.

Most believe in some form of g-d...

now the issue is that they don't believe in a 6 day creation, but then neither did ramban, so that ends that discussion.

1:55 PM  
Blogger Miri said...

look dude, I'm sure there are plenty of people for whom that is true; but I personally know many atheists who feel persecuted by the fact that they can't buy cigarettes on shabbat. It isn't the point however; the point is that you can't assume that everyone believes in G-d, and this article does. it also assumes, more to the point, that one should believe in G-d. I can't abide by the government requiring people or forcing people to live with a value that they do not share. governments should not dictate what we are to believe in. I think that's what is known in polite circles as fascism.

6:12 AM  
Blogger yoni said...

miri, A the world in general is inundated by a "me" sort of culture.... one can make many arguments for making one day a week when the shops all close and EVERYONE goes home, none of them religious.

Which day tends to be dictated by religion however.

and while insisting that people follow a certain religion is lementable, and quite annoying, and the presumption on the part of the article is also annoying, however, it doesn't quite deserve such moral outrage.

Closing the stores one day a week, so? who cares? here it could be on saturday, there it could be on sunday, some places it could even be on thursday.

The rules about marriage in isreal are much more frustrating. (mostly because the rabbis who are intrusted with the rules are beyond corrupt and irresponsible.)

however, if an atheist feels persecuted by the fact that he can't buy cigerets in saturday, then its HIS problem. 7 day a week work weeks are exausting for everyone, not particularly good for the economy in the long term, and are simply and generaly inconvenient. The fact that he is mildly inconvenienced by this fact is not his problem, however if he chooses to feel "persecuted" over a generaly reasonable action, that means that he has a chip on his shoulder and it becomes HIS problem.

Now, pushing religion on someone is not right, but this is small potatoes compared to the problems that there are in isreal, and someone who believes that this is symptomatic of it is simply paranoid.

Personaly i think that all countries and peoples would benefit greatly if all stores and other places of business in the country simply shut down for 1 day a week, barring emergency services, farmacies, and utilities and the like.

12:10 PM  
Blogger yoni said...

and yes, charedim arrogantly persecute the secular, and the secular in isreal persecute the charedim at every turn, but a shop (any shop) not opening on shabbos is NOT persecution!!! noone is trying to persecute you with this.

This is a major problem with us in general, is we're way to fast to feel persecuted, when noone is persecuting us. in general it comes from having a major ego problem and being very ego centric...

in psychiatric circles they call it "paranoia"

12:14 PM  
Blogger yoni said...

and just to be particular miri, having the government shut down on shabbos is NOT an outragous thing to ask. Having most stores except for necessities shut down on shabbos (in a secular state) is not such a big thing to ask...

it in no way ammonts to religious coercion. . .

now, the article misses the point, but so are you at this point.

both sides of the debate are missing the point. consistently.

They're more concerned with themselves or their own selfish views than to extend them to someone else.

12:20 PM  
Blogger Miri said...

I don't object to any store deciding that they want to be closed on Shabbat. What I object to is the blatant assumption that everyone believes in G-d, and are just ignoring Him bc they're lazy. Some people who aren't religious have actually thought out their belief systems, and come to their own conclusions without being brainwashed. Naturally, this is a very difficult thing for people who are brainwashed to understand. It's the smugness and the complete lack of ability to accept any alternative idea that I find so offensive. Also, I'm sorry; if you're going to PUBLISH WRITTEN WORK you should at the very least have a copy editor go over your work and PUT IN THE PROPER PUNCTUATION! is it really so much to ask to stick in a few commas and periods where they rightly belong? Failing to do so marks one as an ignoramous, and I see absolutely no reason to trust such a person as any kind of intellectual authority.

1:05 PM  
Blogger yoni said...

if you're going to PUBLISH WRITTEN WORK you should at the very least have a copy editor go over your work and PUT IN THE PROPER PUNCTUATION!cheers! :) I completely agree.

Failing to do so marks one as an ignoramous, and I see absolutely no reason to trust such a person as any kind of intellectual authority.the fact that this statement is not true is why there is such a thing as a copy editor. . . grammar is an art and science in and of its self, and not being good at it doesn't really comment on the rest of their knowledge... its a common falacy.

though i don't remember the particular grammar errors in the article, but A english is rediculously redundant, and B perhaps these are so egregarious as to prevent them from being accredited as being smart, or perhaps they simply aren't fluent in english, which has nothing to do with whether or not they are smart.

C. i'm sorry miri, but a synonym for education is brainwashing. . . The difference between an educated individual and an uncultured one is that one has been brainwashed into thinking in a particular way and the other does not thing. Its rather depressing but its true.

the vast majority of any and all kind of seculars are just as brainwashed as any religious person, and equaly as stupid. its rather a sad fact of life.

Those that are not are generaly shunned, hated, and severely distrusted often through no fault of their own. (whether in religious circles or in secular circles its all the same. noone tolerates individuality unless it happens to be the kind of individuality they happen to value, which is essentialy saying that they are closeminded and unaccepting.)

6:57 AM  
Blogger Miri said...

First of all, I think I said that the fact that the man could not bother to give his work to a copy editor is what marks him as an unreliable source, not his poor spelling. Yes, unfortunately poor spelling and grammar is common enough. But any serious intellectual is going to make sure that a work of his which is going into print will be coherent and not sound like a third grader wrote it; hence, the copy editor.
Secondly, I'm not really sure what your point is about the education being a synonym for brainwashing. All an education can do is give a person information and tools for putting information together. It's no small wonder that the majority of people can't figure the second thing out; but that does not at all signify that education is the same thing as brainwashing. The only way to expect people to think is to give them the tools with which to do so. What they then do with those tools is solely their own business. Also, the fact that other people have not come to the same conclusions that you have does not make them brainwashed or ignorant. It just means they have different opinions.

4:55 PM  

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